Today Sally Arnold talks about what it takes to achieve high performance. Sally Arnold is an Australian-based business coach, who grew up with an architect for a father. Listen to this episode to discover Sally's tips for unlocking your hidden potential.
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Sally Arnold: We are responsible for reigniting and reinventing our life, as much as we can do.
Voiceover: Business of Architecture, episode 202.
Enoch Sears: Hello, I'm Enoch Sears, and this is the podcast for architects, where you'll discover tips, strategies and secrets for running a profitable and impactful architecture practice. I'd like to invite you to discover how to double your architecture from income, and create your dream practice of freedom and impact by downloading my free four-part architecture firm profit map. As a podcast listener, you can get instant access by going to freearchitectgift.com.
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Today I speak with Sally Arnold, an Australian-based business coach whose father actually was an architect in New Zealand. Without further ado, let's jump into today's episode. Sally, welcome to Business of Architecture.
Sally Arnold: Thank you Enoch.
Enoch Sears: Tell me about your business [inaudible 00:01:32]. I want to go back in time a little bit, I always like learning about people's voyages and their journeys. Basically, I saw on your bio that you started out as a performer.
Sally Arnold: Yes.
Enoch Sears: A musical performer, and then you opened up a store. Tell me about that transition in your life.
Sally Arnold: I originally come from Christchurch in New Zealand. I was born there. I came across to Australia to Adelaide, to go to university when I was 18, because I was a young promising musician, a flute player. I studied in Adelaide for three years, and then went to Sydney, worked in Sydney in the original Jesus Christ Superstar show. I went from being a classical musician to in a rock band.
Then, went to London and studied, came back to Australia, went to the Sydney Opera House, and it was only during that stage that I realized that I had a slight hearing problem. I'd sort of known about it, so I decided that rather than being kicked out of an orchestra, I would go into another career. This is a lot about the work that I do. It's about reinventing yourself. I decided that food was one of my passions, and when I was 26, I opened up a gourmet cookware shop. That shop sold top-end quality gourmet cookware.
That was in Melbourne, and I had that for three years. During that time, some guys who had done up a really tired department store, a bit like a Bergdorf's or something like that, sort of an old-fashioned Bergdorf's. They approached me about coming in and really re-doing their whole home wares area. I joined them for three years.
Enoch Sears: Sally, I'm just going to pause you there, because I always like to dig into someone's first entrepreneurial experience. It sounds like your home wares store was your first venture into entrepreneurship.
Sally Arnold: Yes.
Enoch Sears: I'd like to ask you, what were some of the challenges? Looking back on that time period, what were some of the challenges of doing that venture, and some of the lessons you learned from that experience?
Sally Arnold: The challenges were, at 26 I financed it basically myself, so that was a major challenge. I was over in Australia on my own, my family was in New Zealand, so I had to really put everything that I had, basically into that venture. That was a major challenge. I had no regular income, so I had to trust the shop or the store would work really well.
That first thing, financing it myself at the age of 26. Secondly, going into an area that I really didn't know much about. I hadn't been in retail. I'd been a musician. I'd been a performer sitting on stage. I really knew very little about the retail industry. For me, it was about, I had to learn.
In those days, there wasn't Google. There wasn't anything, so I had to learn as much as I could about food and cooking, even though it might have been a passion. I had to delve into, who was the best? Who produced the best cookware? I had to do a lot of research, which meant phone calls. That's what it was in my day.
That was one of the things. Then, I had to work out, what were the products that I was going to put into that store. I had to be very, very specific, because it was only a small store, and I wanted it to be very niche-orientated. I wanted to really good design products, really top end of the range, but there had to be beautiful products.
Those were some of the lessons. I mean, I must admit, I felt sick at times. I felt quite sick thinking this is what I put myself forward for. There wasn't any way backwards, because I couldn't go back into an orchestra. I didn't want to teach the flute, so it was onwards and upwards.
Enoch Sears: How did you feel you grew during that time?
Sally Arnold: I became very resourceful. I became very resilient. It was more the resilience, because you just have to trust in yourself. You have to trust in your gut. I had to really believe in myself. I believe that resilience, what's resilience? I believe that we're born with resilience as well, and we can also become more resilient in challenging situations. For me, it was about learning resilience, because there were some days where I thought, not many people came into the store, and I thought, “My gosh, how am I going to pay for everything?” It was simple, as basic as that.
Enoch Sears: How did you get people into the store? Was it just based on people walking by, or did you have any sort of marketing that you did for the store?
Sally Arnold: I didn't know much about marketing at that stage, knew very little. I think having had a performance background, I went to local papers, and sort of said to them, “Okay, I'm opening a store. Would you like to write about me?” Dear God, that was so good. I got a lot of articles on the store.
Do you know, on the first day, because I opened in a very in-and-up market area in Melbourne, I was so fortunate. A woman came into the store, very well dressed woman, and she basically wanted to buy the range of glassware. I found out that she was the Lord Mayor's, I don't know if you have that. You don't have mayors in the US, do you? That she was the Lord Mayor's wife. Basically, the word got around.
I was just very, very fortunate, but I'd used my head. I'd gone into a good area, a top-class area. I'd gone into a street where she actually lived, she and her husband lived. That was important to me. I have to say, that's how I marketed, through local newspapers, through word of mouth, and through this woman as well, telling all her friends.
Enoch Sears: There's some good information there, so right location, right [crosstalk 00:07:52], right product for the area.
Sally Arnold: Exactly, and as I said, it was a very up-market area. My products weren't cheap. They were quality products. I can still remember, I do remember this day. She just basically took most of my stock of glassware. I don't know what you'd call it. Wine glasses and tumblers and things like that. I was very pleased.
Enoch Sears: We call that a happy day.
Sally Arnold: That was a very happy day.
Enoch Sears: Then you were recruited by this larger company to run the house wares division.
Sally Arnold: Yes. These guys, I remember them coming in, and I knew that they were sort of investors or something like that. I could just tell by the way they walked through the store. They sent some other people back, and people sort of started going through my store, and then an approach was made a month or so later.
They said what they'd done is, they had a fashion background, and they still have a number of fashion brands here in Australia. They said to me that they really liked my concept of this boutique-y little store. I'll tell you the year it was. It was in the late '70s. They liked the concept. It was very boutique-y. They bought a tired … It was an old fashioned, but had been up-market department store, and they wanted to really re-invigorate the home wares area.
They had one problem. This is a really interesting problem. They had a tenant, they had Wedgwood, and I think Wedgwood had a ten year contract or something like that. Wedgwood, in those days, was a very old-fashioned brand. I think they've changed their whole concept now. The Wedgwood store stood right at the front of their home wares area, as you approach the store on the left hand side. They knew that they had a problem to get new blood into the store, new people, younger people, more interesting people into the store.
They wanted to put a shop like mine, or a boutique shop like mine, I call it “Sally's Cook Shop.” They wanted to put it right at the front of the store, so that they would divert the traffic to the right hand side, and people would be more interested in coming into the store. That was their concept.
I became an employee with them. The boutique was placed right at the front of the store. What i did was very French, with baskets everywhere, with plates and bowls stacked on the floor. It was mainly white, and the Crueset cookware, and then things hanging from the ceiling. It had a really authentic sort of feel to it. It was totally the opposite to the Wedgwood store.
We did it, we did it. We managed to really change the look of that store, to make it boutique-y, to make it very current, to make it very present, and to get a whole different group of people into the store. They gave me carte blanche. I was able to go away on buying trips all the time, and sort of scour the world for the best products. I also introduced, which had never been done in the department store, cooking classes, but with the other thing I did too, was I got a portable kitchen. I got that sponsored. Then I went to the best chefs in Melbourne, and I asked them if they would come in. Once a week they would do a cooking class.
They all loved it, because here they are in a big department store. It gave their restaurant a way of marketing who they were, what they were doing. We were sold out. It was a good marketing idea. You're a marketing person, so I guess you'd get that.
Enoch Sears: I can understand that, yeah.
Sally Arnold: Yeah. It was great. I loved eating, and I was going to good restaurants. I met some of the finest chefs in Melbourne. It's further embellished my love of food and cooking.
Enoch Sears: Then, after that, what was the next transition?
Sally Arnold: I was approached again, by a gourmet cook. Well, they weren't, at that stage, a gourmet cook [inaudible 00:12:30] supplier. It was a company that wanted me to go into Taiwan, and we would bring and produce French cookware in factories in Taiwan. As I said, that was probably early eighties, then.
Taiwan at that time was, I have to say, horrible. It was ordinary. Taipei, in particular, was a really basic, basic country. I went in there. We had a factory in a place called Tainan, which was a three hour train trip from Taipei. They reproduced this cookware, and I have to say, they reproduced it really, really, really well.
Enoch Sears: Let's go back to after you were approached by the housewares company. You opened up this little boutique store inside of this other store. What was your next business venture?
Sally Arnold: The next business venture was when I did the buying for this cookware supplier. It was the one in Taiwan, where we reproduced French cookware by the container load, and sold it into the target stores. I did that for a number of years. After that, what I did was I found that I missed the performing arts world, so I went back and sort of started to look around and find, what sort of interesting work was available in the performing arts world? I saw a job actually advertised by the Australian Ballet, which was a head of their business development area. Even though I hadn't had any experience in finding funding, I thought, “Look, I do know a lot about running a business. I do know a lot about marketing my business. I want this job,” so I did. Eventually I got it.
I headed up the corporate area of the Australian Ballet for six years. That meant that I had to find funding of $1.5 million dollars every year for the Australian Ballet, and that was both nationally and globally. I basically was in touch and connected with all the movers and shakers of Australia and the world. Whenever the ballet toured, I found funding. It was an amazing, fabulous job.
Enoch Sears: Tell me about business development.
Sally Arnold: I went to work for the Australian Ballet for six years, and that was an extraordinary job because I learned a lot from it. I learned a lot from the major CEOs of the world, if how they ran their businesses, how they marketed their businesses. I learned from mixing in a really rarefied society, shall I say, as to how I could sort of eventually when I left the ballet and di what I'm doing now, I could run, excuse me, a really successful business.
The Australian Ballet for me, was also a way of introducing me to the next stage of my career. Moving with royalty, running Princess Diana's gala performance in London, those sort of things were really exciting for me, to be able to basically get in touch with the people who were running the world.
Enoch Sears: You said that you learned some lessons from some of the CEOs and leaders that you interfaced with. What would you say are one or two of those lessons that stand out to you?
Sally Arnold: One of the lessons was, and it was something that they all admitted to me, the power of creative thinking. It was actually a really interesting thing, because as part of the sponsorship, I'd say to someone, to a CEO, “Look, if you want to come in and watch a rehearsal, come in and watch a rehearsal,” et cetera, et cetera. Almost, “Make the ballet your home.”
Quite often, these guys, because it was guys, would come in to watch a rehearsal, and they'd say to me afterwards, they'd say, “Sally, oh my gosh. I've walked into this building feeling really stressed. I felt incredibly stressed. I had a challenge in my business, and now being in this creative environment, I've found a way to actually be able to turn around this challenge.” What I thought at that time was, I thought, “My gosh, there's got to be a way, I've got to bottle this experience. How do I bottle this experience and take that creative thinking?” I said it was about being in a creative environment that helped them to stop thinking about the challenge that they had in the same way that they were thinking about it, and look at it in a very, very different, creative way.
That was one of the lessons that I learned, that creative thinking for corporates or businesses, is absolutely essential. The other thing that I learned from them was, and this is an admission that most people in sponsorship and in the arts won't admit, is that it didn't really matter about the performance. It didn't really matter about whether you're doing a Swan Lake, a Sleeping Beauty, the latest, newest ballet, as long as you could actually market and match the production to the type of sponsor that you knew could be interested in that performance.
What I would do is, there might be a company which I did this with a company that was having trouble getting a planning permit down near the Sydney Opera House. I went to that company, and I said to them, “Look, if you're seen to be partners with the Australian Ballet, I'm sure that this will help as you move towards your planning permit. It's also a smart and a nice, a really nice thing to do.” They came on board as well. What they did was, they invited various ministers along to their evenings, and actually the head of this company became the chair if the Australian Ballet only a few years ago as well.
It was really about looking at how to partner organizations. I learned that these guys really … One of them in particular said to me, he said, “Really, Sally, I don't like the ballet.” He said, “I do not like it at all.” He said, “What the ballet gives me is access to some of the top people in Australia.” He said, “I can actually connect and communicate with these people in a small group.” He said, “That's something that normally, I would not be able to do.” I guess that was a lesson for me. It was a lesson for them as well.
Enoch Sears: You came from a family of architects as well, and you mentioned in your email to me some of the mindset that you've seen architects have in general. Talk to me about that in terms of what's the mindset that you see, from an outside perspective, that architects have that holds them back from having greater success?
Sally Arnold: Look, I'm going to be very, very family-orientated now. I notice living in a family of architects, that my dad was a very controlling person. I think, because he came from a family of people that were not even architects. His family ran hotels. They were [publicans 00:20:02]. We called them that. I don't know what you call them in the US.
Dad came from a very, very basic background. They weren't really into culture, into art. I'm sure that that must have influenced my father. He was a person that, architecture was his whole life. There was virtually nothing else. He lived, he breathed for architecture. I found him a person that was, because he was so controlling, he ran his practice in a way that he was the person who decided what was done, how it was done, and I don't think there was very much input from anyone else. He was a really hard taskmaster. He was also someone that I believe he could have done a lot more. He could have been far more open. He could have been far more open to the people that he had working around him.
He became very, very successful. He got an MBE over here, which is like a queen's gong for his contribution to architecture in New Zealand. He was a well-known name, but all in all, I found that he kept everything to himself. He really didn't open up to the potential of the people that were working with him. I have to say, I noticed that my brother's got the same attitude, because my brother is now running the family business. He's really taken that on.
Also, there's only one woman who works in the office. There was only one woman who worked when dad was around as well. I find that really a bit challenging. I look at my brother, just running the business, and not really expanding it in the way that I believe that he could expand. He could be far more open, especially in Christchurch, to new opportunities. Hey, the city is being rebuilt. There's a lot of new opportunities for architects to market themselves in a smarter, more effective way. He's sort of stayed within that little bubble. Being in a family of architects, I've found that they really … My family stuck to themselves, they stayed within themselves, and I thought that that was not a really smart idea.
Enoch Sears: What would be an alternative that you suggest? You talk about transparency. How would you suggest someone improve on that model?
Sally Arnold: On the transparency model? There's two things. I could also talk about women, and I'm not sure if this is the right time to talk about women, but the transparency model is about partnering, too. I know that that's probably a byproduct of transparency, but hey, in Christchurch, there's the opportunity to partner with other architectural firms. There's an opportunity to look at the new development that's happening.
I read an article in, I think it was The New Yorker or the Vanity Fair about a group of architects, I think in New York, who came into countries that had disasters, like Christchurch with the earthquake, and they partnered with local architects. I actually emailed this group of architects and I suggested that they connect with my family in New Zealand. Spoke to my brother about that, but nothing ever happened. I got an email back from the guys in New York saying, “Yes, we're really interested.”
I believe that it's really important to look at how do you partner? How do you get the best out of what you've got to offer? How can you use the best of what someone else has got to offer? You can be open about what the opportunities are. Also, it helps with financially, you're going to be far more successful.
Enoch Sears: So, partnering, is there anything else that comes to mind?
Sally Arnold: In being transparent, or growing the business, or …
Enoch Sears: You mentioned that you're looking at the business that you saw growing up, which was an architecture firm. You hinted that you had some ideas about how it could be run better, about some things, and you mentioned partnering being one of them. Was there anything else that come to mind in terms of improving that business?
Sally Arnold: There's quite a lot. With the business that my family have, they stick to homes. They stick to residential. They stick to basically residential property. I feel that it's something that they feel very comfortable. And sure, look, it is a niche, but there's so much more that they can do, especially, and I keep going back to Christchurch. Apartment blocks have to be built. This has to be a new style of architecture put together. There needs to be also retail. There needs to be more diversity, as well, with retail.
One of the things that I believe is really important, and I've often thought my brother could be doing this, is partnering with developers. Partnering with developers who … It's done here in Australia. It's done globally. Looking at sort of, okay, how they can partner with a developer, bringing their sense of design, their sense of great buildings to whatever that developer wants to do, and to take that forward.
Enoch Sears: Sally, you coach people on giving standout presentations. I'm just pulling this from your website here.
Sally Arnold: Sure.
Enoch Sears: You say there are some keys. You have a strategy for developing inner mindset balances off your website. How to develop inner mindset balance and strong stealth belief that enables presenters to feel relaxed and in control, less fearful and anxious. Let's talk about what are your two to three top suggestions for creating standout presentations.
Sally Arnold: The first one is, you have to give a presentation you're really passionate about. I know it sounds like the simplest, most basic thing, but it is really, really, really important to find topics that excite something within you, that you feel a true passion and an excitement.
I'll give you a story. You're a bit like a performer when you are a performer. If a flutist like I was gets up on stage and just plays the notes, your audience is going to go, “Well, that was okay, but we weren't really connected with you.” If you get up on stage and you play that music with the passion that sits inside of yourself, you're going to have a very different connection with the audience. Even if you stuff it up, it doesn't matter. The audience will still connect.
The first thing I'd say is, when you decide you want to give a presentation, think about the topics. Think about the topics that really inspire you and excite you, because if they don't, you're going to get up there and you're going to be pretty ordinary. Think about that.
Also, think about what is it that's within you that you want to get out? Don't be afraid of what you've got to say. This is something that I talk to a lot of women about, finding your voice of authority, finding your authentic voice and really deciding that you will get out there, and you'll talk about what you believe in, what excites you, and again, what inspires you.
Be prepared to be a little bit controversial. I think that that is incredibly important, because then you will get an audience reaction. You'll get people in an audience who will come back to you. There's those two things. It's firstly, look at what you're passionate about. Look at your voice, your voice of authority. What is it that makes you stand out? I find that a lot of people say to me, “But, if I come from that voice, what will people think of me?” There's going to be two ways. They're either going to like you, or they're not, but if you don't do it, you won't even know.
Enoch Sears: So get out there and do it.
Sally Arnold: That's a really good point. Also, get out and do it, even if you don't feel you're ready. I always remember, years ago a coach said to me, he said, “Sally, look, you've got to start at some stage,” and I'll give a really good example about speaking. I started running webinars a few years ago. I was a little bit technically challenged. I remember my coach said to me, he just said, “Look, just get out and do it, because you've got to start somewhere.”
I remember doing it. I was so nervous. I was more nervous than being on stage, because it was a technical thing as well. I thought, “My God, I'm going to stuff this up.” Anyhow, I got through it, and I remember at the end, I got two clients out of it. One client who runs the Melbourne Business School, who said it was one of the best presentations she had ever heard. I thought it was shocking, but obviously it wasn't.
I got another client from New Zealand, who was the sister of the Lord of the Rings producer. I've got some pretty high-level clients out of that so-called, “just get out and do it” webinar. For me, what I learned was that we can be our own worst enemy. When I was on that webinar, if I could have found a way to get off that webinar, I would have got off it, because I was just being very critical of myself. As a performer, I always believe I've got to give a really good performance, but that was one of the best examples of, just do it, because we quite often, the resources that sit within us come forward.
If you're really genuine … I did say it was my first webinar. I was really honest. I said, “It's my first webinar. I may stuff up some things. Please stay with me if you want to stay with me. I'm going to get through this.” Maybe it's about being honest, as well. In getting back to speaking and performances, if you're honest and you're on stage and you stuff something up, just say it. People will connect more.
I've seen dancers do this. When I was with the Australian Ballet, I've seen once dancer slip and fall, because there was some dry ice that hadn't been swept away on the floor. She got up, and off she went. She kept dancing.
Enoch Sears: That's a great metaphor, and it ties into the title of your book, which is Creating Encores: A Wake Up Call For Women Leaders.
Sally Arnold: Yes.
Enoch Sears: Tell me about the message of your book.
Sally Arnold: The message basically is that we are responsible for re-igniting and re-inventing our life as much as we can do. I like to say, and ill be really straight about this, there's no excuse. There's no excuse for being in a career, being in a business, being in a life that has stopped, just because we say, get to the age of around 40 and we go, “Look, I'm bored. I don't know what to do.” Being a bit of a victim.
For me, it's about really looking at how can I re-invigorate? How can I re-invent my life? It's a bit like a marriage. Get to a certain stage in your marriage, and you go, “Okay, is this what I signed up for?” There was an easy way out: leave the marriage, or there's a way out of looking at, “Well, how can I re-develop this marriage, or how can I re-develop my career?”
It comes from the times, as I said, being in the performing arts, where I've had to basically stop a career that I was passionate about, a career that I absolutely loved, and think about, “Well, what's the next thing that I love? What am I passionate about?” The book has that message that we can be in a career that, when we were at university, we thought, “Fantastic. This is exactly what I want to do.” Get into the job, spend ten years there, go, “Well, is this what I signed up for? Is my ladder against the wrong wall? What am I doing? How can I change that?”
Enoch, I want to say at this stage, too, it's not necessarily about leaving. It's not necessarily about leaving your job. It's a lot about breathing new life. Put it in the terms of architecture. It's a bit like, you've got a house that's got good bones. Maybe fairly old, but it's got good bones and you go, “Well, I want to do something with that house. I want to put a new kitchen. I want to put a new bathroom in. I want to add a little bit to a part of the house. I want to make this house look a little bit different, and I want it to be a house that I love coming home to. It's a house that really inspires me.”
I give that metaphor to people in their careers, and I said, “Look at what you're doing a bit like a home that's a little bit shabby, but it's got good bones. It's really got good bones. What you're just going to do is redecorate it. You're going to redecorate. [inaudible 00:33:37] down in your kitchen the new bathroom does. Put that in.”
My message is about, okay, for most people, stay in your career, but look at new ways that you can re-invigorate it. For some people, yes, it is about moving out, and it's about finding a new career. It's about being creative about it, looking at how you can redecorate your house in an architectural way too.
Enoch Sears: How do you suggest someone re-invigorate their career?
Sally Arnold: What they have to do is to really go back to the passion. Go back and find out what it is that really excites and that inspires you. You can't go into your head, you have to go into, what is it that sits inside of yourself? You go, “Wow, I absolutely love doing this.” Whether this is something that's in the current career that you're in, or whether it's not.
I suggest to people also to go out of your comfort zone. I'll give an example of a client that I had recently. She was in a job actually, with a building company, of all things. She had got to stage where she was totally bored. She wasn't paid very well, but she'd been there for too long. She'd been there for about ten years. She came to me for coaching, and she said, “Look, I really hate my job. I don't know what to do. I go to work, come home, go to work, come home. My life is really boring.”
What I do with all my clients right at the start of the coaching is, I get them to put a vision board together. I use music, because music takes you out of your sort of left brain, puts you into your creative brain. I get people to start imagining what they can do. Once that happens, it's sort of like it frees up something in the brain. People start to think about possibilities, about potential, about excitement, about what else they can do.
I do that in the first session, and I'd suggest to people that are listening to this podcast is that they start to think about what is it that excites and inspires, but also what makes you challenged? What is it that's out of your comfort zone? What is it that's something that you would absolutely love to do? I did this with my client that I was talking about, and she went, “Oh my gosh, I suddenly realized that I really am stuck.”
She moved like a rocket. She then said, “Okay, I've got to get another job. I need to get it several levels up.” She went off and saw recruiters, went to recruitment agencies. Within three months, she had another job. She came in to me on the day that she was going for one of the interviews. She had a pair of gorgeous high heels, she had a new outfit, and she looked stunning, and she just said, “Sally, I'm going to get this job.”
She did. She got it, and so for her, it was really about getting her out of that comfort zone, that comfort zone of going to work, coming home, going to work, coming home. Being bored. You're very capable, capable person, but she was in a job that really wasn't … it was a large company, but her job wasn't going anywhere. Did the vision board and went, “Oh my gosh, I've just realized what I'm not doing.” It was sort of like it gave her a second wind. She went and said, “Well, okay, I've got to start doing something with my life. Now she's in this role where, I think she's probably now paid about twice what she was paid a few years ago. It's a family company. It's still in the building industry, but she's really appreciated and that's really important.
Enoch Sears: Sally, how can people find out more about you and your work, and connect with you?
Sally Arnold: What I suggest is that they go on to my website, or else they email me. If I give you my email address now, is that a smart idea?
Enoch Sears: Sure.
Sally Arnold: Okay, so it's Sally@creatingencores.co. Just “dot co”. Just tell me a bit about where you're at. What's challenging you? What's stopping you at the moment? Especially when you've been in a career that you were passionate about, say, a few years ago and that passion's gone out, because as I said, it's not necessarily about leaving that career. It's about really re-invigorating it. It's about putting new music, composing new music for your career, looking at a new way of moving ahead. That's the best way. Go on to my website, which is Creating Encores, www.creatingencores.co. Then you can find out a bit more about me.
Enoch Sears: Fantastic. Thank you, Sally Arnold, for being on The Business of Architecture.
Sally Arnold: Thank you, Enoch. It was great to talk with you. You [inaudible 00:38:26] well.
Enoch Sears: That is a wrap. Thank you for listening today. If you're looking for more time, freedom, impact and income as an architect, get instant access to my free, four-part architect profit map by visiting freearchitectgift.com. Today's podcast is sponsored by AIA Advantage partner BQE Software, the makers of Archioffice. Archioffice is the only office and project management software designed specifically for architects. It helps you manage people and projects while you focus on designing great architecture. Whether you're working remotely or on site, Archioffice allows you to monitor the status of your projects and tasks, and send out invoices in an accurate and timely manner. Get your fully-functional 15-day trial of Archioffice by going to businessofarchitecture.com/demo.
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